You’re Not a Programmer, We Won’t Pay You That Much
Occasionally, people ask me to create XHTML/CSS template based on provided .PSDs. Most of the time, such projects are pretty straight-forward — I tell the hourly rate and the estimated hours. The prospective client then accepts the offer or not.
It could be zillion reasons why clients reject offers and I’m used to some neutral (read: polite) arguments, like “It exceeds our budget”
or something like that. However, today I received an interesting response:
“You are a little-bit too expensive, XXX is an hourly rate for a programmer.”
Funny, huh? Or sad?
Why on Earth would anyone compare client-side coding with programming. What is it that people (or just this particular client) think some cog of the same engine should be valued more than others?
Is it because the work of accessibility consultant, CSS coder, SEO engineer or usability expert is not something you can point your finger at? Or is it ‘cause people tend to care for web standards in a way of questionably increased initial exposure on endless, but completely irrelevant CSS showcase lists?…
60 Comments
I can understand the frustration, but let me make an analogy - does a nurse earn the same hourly rate as the doctor?
Comment (#) by Reader — 22nd January 2008.
haha excellent comment “Reader", except I’m pretty sure there are SOME nurses that make more money than SOME doctors :)
Comment (#) by AlliXSenoS — 22nd January 2008.
@anonymous reader (or is it called anonymous coward?):
If you’re building an average product, go ahead and hire a nurse (she’ll probably release your headache later on).
If you’re working on something extraordinary, then you’ll need darn good plastic surgeon. And they are the most expensive kind.
Comment (#) by marko — 22nd January 2008.
:))
I don’t think I’m the one the post is aimed at :)
Anyway, on the topic, the question was in general (as was the post), and I don’t think my logic is flawed, nor the reasoning behind it.
Comment (#) by Reader (Josip) — 22nd January 2008.
You still didn’t present some real arguments, just the personal view (which was taken with a grain of salt, since you decided to shoot it anonymously).
Could you explain it more concrete?
Comment (#) by marko — 24th January 2008.
For a moment there I thought I was at a shooting range :)
To skip the intro, you have noted that you believe that all the cogs in the engine are of the same value, which I don’t believe to be the case. There are cogs and there are Cogs.
The analogy of the engine is pretty good actually, and using it - the client side coding falls a bit short of the driving force, wouldn’t you say? :)
In order for the “all cogs of the same engine” view to stand - the complexity of basic (and advanced) concepts behind programming and client side coding would have to be the same. And this is not the case, not by a long shot. While you look (this is only my impression) at both to be a predefined set of rules you have to abide by in order to get something done - programming has a much more pronounced need for actually understanding those rules (algorithms) than client side coding.
I am not trying to undermine your knowledge and skill, you are obviously an expert at what you do, but although this segment is getting increasingly popular, the actual value of it will always stay one step behind the other equally valued cog :)
PS: No, I am not a programmer, luckily :)
Comment (#) by Reader (Josip) — 25th January 2008.
The nurse and doctor analogy does not apply. What a front end coder does is no less skillful than a back end programmer.
It drives me crazy to no end that people think we should be paid less. We put the faces on your applications. We make sure the users can actually use them. We make sure the search engines bring them traffic. Without a decent UI a site is basically worthless. I would argue our role is even more important because not only does our work have to function properly, it has to look good and be clear.
Here is a better analogy:
Would you pay your oncologist less than your cardiologist? Would you pay an architect less than the contractor building your house? It’s apples and oranges.
Comment (#) by beth — 29th January 2008.
@ BETH
Programming is different kind of job. Programming is more complicated than client side coding.
It’s a fact - programmer earn 2x more than client side coder.
Comment (#) by k2 — 30th January 2008.
Programming requires more skill and expertise than usability, SEO, IA, accessibility, standardized coding, and design combined? I don’t think so.
Comment (#) by beth — 30th January 2008.
WAR! Lets bring in a third party too!
Beth, frontend CODER is not a DESIGNER - and 90% of your post is a description of a DESIGNERS job.
Frontend coder is a link between a backend coder and a designer. And what would be HTML without links? ;)
Comparing jobs like this is like comparing a members of the same soccer team. Sucky players will be payed with a sucky paycheck, superstars will get shitload of money - simpla math - no matter what position they play, because they designated (defense or middle) roles are of the SAME importance.
But, lets be on-topic…
Both “back end coders” and “front end coders” suck, their problems are mostly logical and they can be solved with a copy/paste or by a google… we designers rule! Designers are ofc, strikers \o/. Now, pass me that bloody ball, im a superstar… and stfu.
*smiling with a flamethrower in hands! Rawr!
Comment (#) by Dudikoff — 30th January 2008.
I totally agree with Reader and AlliXSenoS
Comment (#) by An Jay — 30th January 2008.
Hi k2, the above statement is probably too general. PSD2HTML kind of client-side coder is paid even less than your estimate. What Dudikoff said sums it all up:
Long story short, the comparison of the client-side coder with a programmer is inadequate. Same applies in both directions.
Comment (#) by marko — 30th January 2008.
Here is another automotive analogy: “Now we spent on constructing the best engine and transmisson there is, lets find a cheapie who can hack out a decent car body…”
Comment (#) by Björn — 30th January 2008.
@An Jay: Which part do you agree with? That there are nurses and doctors, or that some nurses make more money than doctors? :)
Comment (#) by marko — 30th January 2008.
I study computer science and freelance as a client coder on the site.
To me it’s pretty obvious that a programmer should get more paid than an client side coder.
The complexity of the knowledge you need to have to be able to program large applications is much greater than what’s needed for building a front end application (unless you’re a javascript guru working on a huge framework or something). The back-end part of a web application takes much longer to build, proving this point fairly well.
A good programmer requires years of education while the concepts of XHTML and CSS can be picked up in an hour and mastered fairly quickly, provided you do some reading of sites and the specs.
Actually, I think that the doctor-nurse analogy was very good. Too bad you shot it down with an ad hominem argument. Could you instead tell us what makes the analogy flawed, given that most programmers are likely have more education than front end developers.
Comment (#) by F — 30th January 2008.
Oh, and maybe I should have mentioned that argument too.
The soccer team analogy is also valid. Of course a CSS expert should get a good hourly salary, given that that kind of expertise is needed on the project.
However, if that isn’t the case, then paying for more expertise than you need is stupid.
I think all salaries should depend on the knowledge and education needed for the task. If you have more knowledge than they need then either you need to lower your salary to fit the project or they need to find someone more suited for the job.
Simply stating that we all should earn the same because we’re all needed feels like hybris (I’m not against the idea in general - I actually think it’s great. However, it doesn’t work in a capitalistic society).
Comment (#) by F — 30th January 2008.
Exactly: a good programmer. Not any programmer.
Lots of people claim to be programmers, but they are still educated in a way you described front-end developers master HTML/CSS. And those sure add some mediocracy to programmers in general. That’s why it’s unsuitable to compare the client-side coder with a programmer :)
To make things clear — nobody’s for the same earnings, but against the generalization.
Comment (#) by marko — 30th January 2008.
I still think that someone who applies for a job as a programmer has more education that most of the people that work as front end developers, but I guess that’s just an estimation.
However, my points in the second comment are still valid regardless what you think of the first one.
Comment (#) by F — 30th January 2008.
More WAR! References > education ^^
Comment (#) by Dudikoff — 30th January 2008.
As a web designer, even I’d say that a back end programmer requires much greater skill and knowledge than someone who can xhtml and css.
If you are actually involved in the design process, usability, SEO etc, then you should obviously be paid accordingly - but to compare and equate proper back end programming with simply converting of a .PDS into a .html file is unreasonable.
Different jobs.
Comment (#) by Azeem — 30th January 2008.
“The nurse and doctor analogy does not apply. What a front end coder does is no less skillful than a back end programmer.”
I beg to differ.
The main argument here seems to be, “a front end developer has to know about accessibility, seo, etc” As if reeling off a thread of skills makes the argument more valid
In the same way, a back end developer has to understand database design, making code reusable, bug free, easy to understand, well designed. I could go on for hours about how much I have learned in the 2 years of commercial programming I’ve done after a 4 year degree. And i am still nowhere near a professional programmer really.
Coincidently, I could take a design from a psd and make it into a website, done properly with all the semantic and accessible bells and whistles. Its not hard at all after you practice it (although to say you could learn it in an hour is a big of an exaggeration by that other guy). Programming is far more difficult and less people are willing to do it, therefore we get paid more.
I take an interest in both sides. But my profession is back end developer. Because it pays more and rightly so.
Comment (#) by Chris James — 30th January 2008.
Programming is harder to master. Programming languages (e.g. C#, PHP, SQL) have a steeper learning curve compared to a markup (keyword: MARKUP) language like XHTML / CSS. It takes passion to be able to code for hours. It takes a certain knack to be able to come up with elegant code. It’s like solving a math problem. Did you like math? Did you excel in math?
If you say that accessibilty + SEO + CSS + usability = programming, then you should realize that programming involves more than just learning a programming “language". Writing the code is the easy part. It’s the analysis portion, that part where you design a system that works flawlessly that is the crux of programming, and that is not easy to achieve, that’s why no program is totally bug free or hack free. That’s why programs need to evolve and new versions have to come out every so often.
This is not to say that the skills you mentioned are menial. It’s just the tasks to perform them involve more grunt work and when something goes wrong it is easier to analyze and come up with a solution than in programming.
Comment (#) by Dennison Uy - Graphic Designer — 30th January 2008.
On the same note, may I ask what hourly rate did you give the client that he found “too expensive"?
Comment (#) by Dennison Uy - Graphic Designer — 30th January 2008.
In general, I think the term Web Developer is wayyyyyyyyy undervalued.
I come from the old school programming scene with a 4-year degree. On the other hand, I have taught myself HTML, CSS, and many other web-related (bits and pieces of langauges) things necessary to get a good site up and maintain it.
I won’t shoot down one or the other except to say that the above average web developer may (?may?) in fact be more multi-fauceted in general… unless you’ve studied many different langauges as a programmer – sure some of you have.
That said, you’ll have wild variables people will place on what they think KNOWLEDGE is worth. On the web end of things I consider myself a conductor – not knowing how to play all of the instruments but DARN well knowing how and when each instrument should sound in the given piece of music.
So is the programmer (specific music instrument player) more valuable than the Web Developer/Designer (conductor) – each project would vary. Again bringing you back to the value placed on knowledge. Is the one that plays (let’s up the ante) say 3 instruments more valuable than the one who can lead a whole Orchestra of instruments?
I’d say it depends… and you’ll get a wild degree of answers that would vary from task to project.
Comment (#) by mbhayes — 30th January 2008.
Sorry, but that’s just complete ignorance.
Comment (#) by Niall Doherty — 30th January 2008.
@Beth: But we are not talking about usability, IA or design. If the client is supplying the design then the DESIGNER was already paid to think about those things.
Don’t get me wrong, I see the value in both, I work as a developer where I take designs from our design team and not only do the front-end but also the server-side code.
But IMHO the server-side code is of more value and takes a higher skill / longer time to master.
Comment (#) by Aaron Bassett — 30th January 2008.
@Niall: Is it? Personally, I grasped the concepts of content/presentation/behavior immediately and had my first, pretty basic, two column layout up and running in the next two hours. Learning more advanced techniques takes time, but it’s no-where near as hard as learning how to be a great programmer.
No I’d say I pretty much know the ins and outs of XHTML and CSS.
How fast you learn depends on how much research or reading you do. I’d advocate internet sites over books if you want to learn it fast.
Comment (#) by F — 30th January 2008.
It is hard to judge your case because it didn’t say how much money you asked. If you asked for a rate that is same as programmer’s, maybe your client are right. In general, a programmer makes much more money than XHTML/CSS coder. You can search salary rate by job title on web.
However, if you client asked for extremely low rate, that’s different story. For instance, I had been asked for coding XHTML/CSS template for $50. I think that’s too low!!!
Comment (#) by 3d — 30th January 2008.
This is certainly a good argument. Let’s look at it this way. Front end development may be easier to grasp, but it’s certainly made harder with the variety of browsers out there. Add the various quirks and bugs of each browser, it becomes tricky creating a site that works consistently and looks flawless in all those browsers without experience. So, down goes the argument “A good programmer requires years of education while the concepts of XHTML and CSS can be picked up in an hour and mastered fairly quickly, provided you do some reading of sites and the specs.” It ain’t true and it will never be true. For example, 2.5 years ago, I could not build a site that would work in IE5 Mac and now two years forward, I can easily craft one up without too much hassle and much testing.
By the way, I work in Silicon Valley and I come across many brilliant programmers. The best ones I know aren’t the ones who got a 4 year degree, rather those who learned programming themselves.
But to answer the question above, perhaps just slicing and dicing may not command a high price, but if you’re doing any other things there such as SEO optimization, perhaps changing the UI to improve user experience, then the story changes.
Comment (#) by Dhana — 30th January 2008.
Okay, back to the point (and way back, i stopped reading the argument about 20 posts into) that a back-end developer/programmer should get paid less than the front-end coder, i say is false.
My reasoning is that yeah, a back-end developer’s/programmer’s work might be more strenuous most of the time, however the amount of time it takes to accomplish most of their tasks is usually much greater than that of the “middle-man” front-end coder. I do a lot of both ends of work, and I usually charge around the same hourly fee, but i usually end up getting paid more for development primarily because of the extra time it takes.
Beyond that I think this argument is HIGHLY based on the individual circumstance and project. You can’t just rule out that all front-end coding jobs are easier than all back-end programming jobs.
Comment (#) by Conrad — 31st January 2008.
@F: Creating a two column blog-like layout with web standards is indeed a piece of cake, but please look at the following few web sites:
http://www.ezadar.hr/
http://www.coolinarika.com/
http://vegasdogbakery.test.burza.hr/
http://www.groovecaffe.com/
http://web.burza.hr/.
Please turn JS on and off, resize text in your browser and turn off CSS on the provided links. When you do, please think for a moment who’s responsibility is that?
Now, do you think you can master the front-end work of this quality in a few days?
Comment (#) by marko — 31st January 2008.
Well said! And could you provide some ratios for each part of the development?
Comment (#) by marko — 31st January 2008.
This is by far the most interesting article, and even interesting comments (sometimes amusing ;)
Its of course very tempting to compare on various ‘points’, and I’ll throw in my two cents
— time to code : it takes more time to travel by trains than by planes
—strenuous effort : operating a crane is less strenuous than lifting a weight by hands (and weightlifters spend a hell lot of time practicing and building their skills
— learning, education, exposure and knowledge : back-end reqs. more than what front-end requires? like being an stenographer(or even content editor) to an school dropout CEO - all things weigh less for being a CEO, if its only aboput learning proper english…..
—Analysis is required for programming; psd-> xhtml is ‘practice’ : looking at image in one medium, and translating it into a structured-well thought-managable code is also ‘analytical’.
Idiots who made this comparison in first place will never understand who’ll command more price - Microangelo, Da vinci or Rembrandt! its not skilss/analysis/amount of material/number of hours/
its more than all these put together
Yes, some jobs require more than others, and all jobs gets paid by the VALUE they create, and not the generalizations somebody has on them….so the client is wrong ‘explaining” the logic to Marko, its just poor negotiating skills.
And it for whatever it might bring to table, most of ‘back-end’ things, like data management for instance are open source anyways! and yes the computer scientists- who actually are not comparable to programmer and actually do the crunching etc deserve to be highly paid anyways.
So here we look for VALUE a job creates, and the QUALITY of EXPERIENCE it generates for the consumer….
Comment (#) by tAsh — 31st January 2008.
This lack of understanding doesn’t extend only to the individual or small business clients but also to many large organizations.
Many companies have web teams, which are staff exclusively by backend programmers and many of them lack the design, and advanced front end skills necessary. The problem is the back-end’s approach is solely technical. Where the front-end or UID is creative,analytical and techical.
These so-called back-end web teams, often don’t produce work that based on standards and their understanding of the dynamics of UI is non-existent. Not to mention programmers often fail to understand basic communication principles and how to design to achieve specific marketing objectives. This is the value of the front-end designer.
But the fact still remains companies still continue to operate without figuring out why their website is not producing the results after placing the so-called resources or investment behind it. They need to use logic, you cant place a Accountant in a Marketing Department and expect the desired results.
At the end of the day the user is interacting with the interface not the database.
Comment (#) by PKayne — 31st January 2008.
From the contractor’s point of view, wouldn’t be nice to have only one person that does coding + markup + accessibility and usability + seo + all other things for a low price?
They’d love that, but since such a thing is impossible (or am I wrong?), they prefer to pay programmers more and to ignore the value of web developers & designers, because they at least obtain a result “that works"… But a result that works without bringing ease of use to the end consumer doesn’t it mean a poor service?? Do you, programmers, like to receive poor service when you go, let’s say to a furniture store, if that means you pay a low price? I don’t think so…
And there’s one more thing: poor (x)html means that persons with dissabilities have a hard time finding their way through the website (section 508 - do programmers know what that means?). Come on folks, those people deserve to be treated like all the rest, they have a hard time already!
Comment (#) by Cosmin Dorobantu — 1st February 2008.
I think the whole argument here is irrelevant - everybody is paid as much as he thinks his value is.
just let it to the market and cut the crap with the arguments about programmers needed to be paid better than the xhtml/css coders.
we talk here about the difference between mediocrity and excellence - mediocre programmer won’t be paid more than excellent xhtml/css coder with seo/accessibility/usability in mind.
mediocre programmer would receive only tasks that a trained monkey (or computer thereof) can do. mediocre xhtml/css coder would receive only basic tasks such as changes in the color or adding few boxes.
it’s always about masters of their trade and their value of their work.
i can only agree with marko that being skillful, experienced guy you just bill much higher rates to your clients. it’s because you deliver value and your clients know this. if they don’t, then just pass them down to cheapos that will make their websites mediocre.
Comment (#) by dusoft — 2nd February 2008.
I’m actually glad that programmers think that front-end coding is “easy". If it wasn’t for that thought, I would probably be out of a job. Because when all is said and done, clients hire me to clean up the mess left by those fabulous “doctors"…
And believe me, I’ve seen some very, very large messes in these past few months…
Doctors and nurses? Hardly. How about doctors and doctors.
Comment (#) by Tim Ceuppens — 2nd February 2008.
it’s hard to compare doctors and nursers, because, doctors have more responsibility, so, the right “persons” would be two kind of doctors, each one of his area. each one with his responsibility and importance. maybe plastic surgeon earn more money, but there’s no reason to tell him “your service is too expensive, you can’t be more expensive of my odontologist” :)
Comment (#) by davor — 5th February 2008.
if we follow some people’s logic..then one can assume that the designer should get paid next to nothing since everyone can open paint and draw a couple boxes or circles.
doubt it.
Comment (#) by Frankie — 6th February 2008.
So how about this? Everybodys paid proportionally to number of days they spent studying at university and then studying books, tutorials, forums, etc? :) Most programmers would still be paid more than most coders…
Comment (#) by ciekawostki — 6th February 2008.
Client Side Coding is Programming HTML Coding is not Programming
Wow…
Programmers do for web
Client Side
Server Side
Then there is Application Programming.
there are different types of programmers..
The Nurse vs Doctor does not apply. However neither does some of the other choices…
HTML Coder is the Nurse
CSS and HTML is some where in between Nurse and Specialist.
Client Side is a Specialist for the Look and Feel… like Diet Doctor or maybe even a General Doctor.
Server Side is a Specialist Internal Doctor.
Application Programmer is a Brain Surgeon.
You don’t pay the same for all programmers. If you are a programmer or not does not matter. When trying to sell your expertise sell the product you are producing so if the product you are creating is going to be for someone’s personal home page it will never be worth the cost of creating it. However if you are creating a HTML page that makes your Web Store make Millions due to the HTML then it is worth more the the personal home page even if you built it server side.
Hope this helps some.
Comment (#) by Nathan Stanford — 6th February 2008.
Funny, huh? Or sad?
Given the debate this post has caused you can add controversial too!
Comment (#) by John Harrison — 11th February 2008.
..the truth is in the eyes of the beholder..
Most likely are people who make such statements server side oriented. People always seem to think that their knowledge domain is more significant.
Comment (#) by EDL seo — 28th February 2008.
“Why on Earth would anyone compare client-side coding with programming. ”
> good question. I just ignore these kind of emails/clients. You gave him your offer - nothing to bargain about. I mean you are the expert. I don’t walk into a shop and tell the store manger a price of product I want to purchase.
Comment (#) by skuub internetagentur — 4th March 2008.
When it comes to the success of an online business there are a few factors.
Traffic (marketing & seo)
Function (programming)
Presentation (design)
There are some junk websites out there massive successes. Myspace is #1. How did it beat all the the other social networks? Traffic. (read about their marketing strategies sometime).
Function. Does myspace work? Most of the time lol.
Presentation - its horrible.
So the business works without quality presentation. Would it work without function? No. Without traffic? No.
As a front end guy you are only worth what you are worth to the project. Creating xhtml templates that index better and display in more browsers on a site is worth much more to a site that serves 5 million visitors per month compared to 50.
Here’s the inverse.
I’m starting a social network. Guy #1 can build me a myspace replica with all enterprise level geotargeting and load balancing features for $xx,xxx. Or I can buy one of those cheapo indian social networks in a box for $299.
Don’t be offended because the quality of your work isn’t that valuable to a particular client.
Comment (#) by Tayfun — 20th March 2008.
Friend Just ignore these things and carry on.
Comment (#) by shopping cart — 25th March 2008.
The question should be
Can I afford to charge xxx amount per hour for my work?
If yes then you obviously have enough work and its all good.
But to those comparing front end style-sheet work to back-end programmers work, please!
I am not a designer but I can play with photoshop for a few hours and come up with something that works, a few hours later i can have a style sheet that works on majority of browsers including some nice javascript extras.
I am a programmer for back end work, On a daily basis i deal with the following technologies, Database abstraction / Session Management / Authentication and user-group management, acl’s / api’s / html / javascript / java and more. I have to learn new technologies every week/month.
If the guys who take the output of my hard work and give it a skin using stylesheets and photoshop got a payrise to my wage, I would demand a huge increase or leave, simple as that. And if i could not find a job elsewhere I would ask to be moved to the front end guys job and put my feet up haha.
Just my 2 cents.
Comment (#) by lee — 29th March 2008.
Lee, I suppose you are the rare talent among us. Could you please showcase your non-programming work? What is your project of a career?
Comment (#) by marko — 29th March 2008.
Sorry Marko, Maybe I should have re-phrased that.
I was not saying that front end guys are useless, thats not true , they have a very important role, and that role plays the biggest to the end user I agree, it’s what the general public see that makes them stay instead of clicking the back button or google link again. (backend work is mostly transparent to the public looking at the site).
I was putting my view accross on the comparison of the wage difference.
My project of a career is taking the ideas, doing the planning of the back-end, what technologies to use and who will be taking care of which job. Setting up the SVN repos and keeping track of progress.
I don’t want to showcase my own personal design work, as it’s not very good and you design guys will fall off your chairs laughing. And it also doesn’t apply to standards until recently.
My main point was that their is no comparison between the two jobs in my view the back-end guys get paid more.
As for the poster of this thread/item, he asks for xx amount an hour, and if his work is worth that then great. The customer has a budget for each stage of the site. If he has paid x amount to the back-end programmers then he is not going to pay x * 1.5 or x * 2 or whatever to the front end guys.
Anyway, any team that I have been involved in splits the work up into back-end / front-end jobs, but the end result isn’t looked at in this way, after all the front-end guys give their input to the back-end guys to help from a user interface point of view and vice versa. The team gets a bonus and some appreciation for a good result, but at the end of the day, it’s the back-end guys that have made the most money and thats perfectly reasonable as they have done more work.
Comment (#) by lee — 30th March 2008.
p.s
Nice design/layout Marko, please don’t think i am having a digg at your work. It’s obvious you are a professional, maybe this client doesn’t require a professional job.
SV650, whoot! gotta get me one of those. I wish!
Comment (#) by lee — 30th March 2008.
This post is silly and poorly expressed.
You’re free to charge whatever you like, and what client side coding is worth is up to whomever will pay the amount.
And I know this will piss you off but: XHTML/CSS coders have IE6 to thank for even having a trade. Otherwise Indian guys who learn Java in school could do the work for next to nothing.
Comment (#) by jimklee — 30th March 2008.
I think we have to separate front-end work in two groups.
Group 1: This are web designers who either have an education in web design, or have taught themselves.
Group 2: Those who implement the design (preferably by group 1) using (X)HTML and CSS
Do you seriously think that the skills in group 2 should be valued as high as the actual web designers? It’s like getting a blue print of an house that were built by architects. If you are given a PSD file and asked to turn it into markup, you should be getting paid less than group 1.
And those who fit in both groups are worth even more. But that wasn’t what you were writing about.
When it comes to “programmers” you have to differentiate. Some have learned to copy/paste PHP and take programming jobs. To compare them with the average programmers, is like comparing HTML coders with Frontpage “experts”
I have spent many years at my University to get a CS degree. I’m not good at web design. I can make a clean and functional interface, but that’s it. But I have no problems with implementing web design and making sure that it follows web standards and tests them against the common browsers. (I have managed to evolve since I first made an HTML page in 1996)
So I hope you can understand that I have the experience necessary when I say this:
A really good XHTML/CSS “coder” is worth more than a self taught PHP copy/paste monkey. I have been in contact with several developers behind web sites, and I wonder if some of them have even seen a computer.
But the average programmer should be paid more than a XHTML/CSS “coder". The skillsets required are of a completely different complexity.
That’s just ignorant. It may be that you work for a shitty company that can only attract programmers with no experience. A better explaination is that you don’t know what’s going on in the mystical world of programming. Just like the bosses in this article doesn’t understand front-end, you don’t understand back-end.
Programming is both creative and analytical. Some of it can be compared with inventing new innovations on a daily basis. Most of it is re-inventing something a thousand other’s have done before, but the actual process is the same.
BTW: I have nothing against PHP, I use it myself sometimes. It’s just that I am tired of people calling themselves programmers, just because they can install Word Press
Comment (#) by Developer — 30th March 2008.
BTW: I forgot to mention that I have almost a decade worth of actual work experience…
Comment (#) by Developer — 30th March 2008.
Well, this is a very interesting post. I currently work as a Front-end Developer, but I also do a lot of programming(PHP, Ruby, and C mostly).
I recently architected a site that acts as a portal for 150 hotel sites(subdomains of the portal). So, we are talking several thousand pages.
Basically, there is a main wrapper that fits around every single site. When you access a hotel from the portal, there is an interior view that appears, which has it’s own navigation.
I will definitely say that this project required the same sort of design/architectural thinking as a back-end OOP system. I had to constantly refactor things to make them more dynamic, so, whenever we go to add another hotel in our admin…….things would just work. I had to find the fine line of abstraction so we could still customize things if need be. This was ALL HTML/CSS/JAVASCRIPT work. ALL OF IT. Yet, it still required the same sort of architectural decisions faced by the back-end developers. Yes, the decisions are of a different realm, but they require a very similar approach. Tack on making sure everything worked in all of the browsers, and you have yourself a big project.
I am not sure if I would agree that Front-end Developers should be paid as much as the Back-end guys, but I would definitely agree that the difference should not be that substantial(comparing two people of proportional skill level, of course).
The main point I am trying to make here is directed at all of the comments I have seen about front-end work being “easy” and “you can learn that in an hour". This is completely and utterly WRONG. Just because it’s easy to get up and running on something, does not mean that it is easy to become an expert!
I am a jazz pianist, and I would say that the piano is REALLY easy to learn compared to other instruments. It is very easy to make a sound and very easy to visualize the notes in relation to one another. There are also no register issues. It’s just as easy to play a high note as it is to play a low note. BUT, I will also say that the piano is probably one of the most DIFFICULT instruments to master. This is not meant to be a direct comparison. I just feel that people hack a bit of html out real quick and say “oh, that’s easy….anyone can do that” and think they know everything about it. They don’t.
I would challenge any of you who think that front-end development is a piece of cake to become experts at this field and then reevaluate your decision.
Comment (#) by Dalton — 31st March 2008.
You know… we, developer, have destroyed the occupation once known as “Webmaster".
“Web Designer” is next in our list.
GWT
ASP.NET
Drupal
We’re onto you “Front-End Developer".
By the way, I don’t like the term “Front-End Developer” to be mixed with “Web Designer". That’s like lowering the value of “Developer” to the “Web Designer” level. Sorry, please do not call yourself as a “Developer". I know it sounds like I’m trying to put “Developer” in elite level. But I assure you, Web Designer is no Developer.
Take a look at this humble person’s website:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/about/dave/
“I’ve learned various coding languages over the years. In the mid-90’s it was a hobby, these days I sometimes get paid for it. I am not and will never be a real programmer, but being able to bend a computer to my will often proves useful.”
Comment (#) by Ted — 31st March 2008.
Is “coding” not “programming” ?
I understand if you mean something like HTML or CSS, but what about JavaScript, for example?
Comment (#) by anonymouscowherd — 31st March 2008.
I never said I was a designer, nor am I mixing front-end development in with design. They are two separate things…..IMO. All of the work I do is in the text-editor. I don’t see a problem with the term “Front-end Developer", because that is what it entails. You develop the code for the front-end of the website. And, in defense of my designer colleagues, for you to think that the web design profession is of a “lower level” than that of coders/programmers is pretty silly.
Design is a COMPLETELY different realm, and you can’t really compare the two. When it comes to creating a visual/enticing presentation, the designer is in a league far above you. As are you in a league above the designer when it comes to instantiating objects.
That is because people started to realize that, generally, one person is not good at all of the responsibilities. Designers(in general) are not great programmers just as programmers(in general) are not great designers. I wouldn’t look at it as “destroying” an occupation. I would look at it as, the web has evolved, so now you can spend your time programming because you don’t have to be the “master of all things web” and fuss with the elements you may not enjoy(working with Photoshop perhaps?) :o)
Comment (#) by Dalton — 31st March 2008.
I think you should be paid fairly whatever your job is. It is dumb for an employer to compare your job to a programmer’s job. I was a QA engineer for several years and got similar type of crap. One employer actually said, “you’re pretty smart and graduated from Berkeley, why aren’t you a developer?” I think every job function that is essential to a product should be equally respected. If they don’t want to pay what you’re worth then it’s their loss.
Comment (#) by thebaglady — 31st March 2008.
So, what about developers who do the full stack - designing the database and queries, choosing and setting up the ORM, writing the business logic, laying out the application flow, writing the presentation templates, XHTML, cross-browser CSS and JavaScript, 508 and WCAG compliance, etc.
What should people like me be paid?
Comment (#) by John — 31st March 2008.
Here’s my two cents:)
The proper metric is price per completed task. The more one can accomplish in an hour the more one can charge. But then the question becomes: how can you compare whether one completed task is more sophisticated than another?
In terms of the work that you achieve, only you would know the answer to that. But how can a potential buyer of your service compare your rate to that of a different type of service? Only the buyer can know that based on what has been communicated to him/her.
It is the buyer of the service to whom you have demonstrated what your level of skill is and it is the buyer who determines whether your rate is appropriate based on how impressed they are. Clients are sometimes ignorant and will judge accordingly. They need to be educated on how your service meets their needs. The price is then an agreement between buyer and seller. Whether or not you are charging more or less than a programmer is irrelevant.
Anything other than that, in terms of comparison, is all apples and oranges because there’s too many variable factors.
Comment (#) by brooker — 1st April 2008.
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time, but if you have anything to say, please send me a message.